This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Suspension, brake, and hydraulic/electric steering discussion.
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yargnits
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by yargnits »

Before doing the work I contacted Whiteline and asked if the supplied washer was meant for above or below the mount. They told me below, so that top washer is the stock one.

I’ve been looking around the net for images or videos of people swapping to urethane bushings. I’ve seen a couple where a flat looking washer was used:

This guy flipped the washer over:
https://youtu.be/RD0BRa-NXHE


And there was a lot of talking on the G8 board about this small gap being expected and acceptable. https://www.g8board.com/forums/7-suspen ... ike-3.html

Anyone with whitelines want to share a pic of the their strut tower to top plate gap?

Tomorrow I’ll email Whiteline about it.
Dave B - Yargnits
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2011 Caprice 9C3
2018 Silverado LT
2005 John Deere (garden tractor)
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kevink
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by kevink »

The top nut is not supposed to tightly sandwich the strut tower between the strut bushing and the top plate (the top plate is not supposed to come in contact with the strut tower). The gap that you see is a function of how tall the bushing is in it's compressed state. I think you're fine since they are new and obviously not collapsed. So, just keep an eye on them. If you see an increase in gap over time, you know that they are collapsing. That's the only way to know if a bushing is collapsed. Since they are all built differently and out of different materials, the gap will vary from one brand to another when new. You can't simply measure the gap and know if they are bad or not unless you also measured the gap when they were new. If there are no noises and it it drives fine, I would just drive it. You may need an alignment, though, since a change in gap can mean a change in ride height. Have someone steer the front wheels left to right while you look at the top plates and you will see why the gap is necessary.
Last edited by kevink on Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
2011 9C3: 11.48 @118.
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kevink
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by kevink »

The better pic you posted of the top plate looks perfect... nice and level. Again, the top plate is not responsible for holding the strut in the car. The weight of the car does that. The top plate is there too keep the assemble in the car when it's jacked up and the gap allows for changes in strut angle when the wheels are turned and the suspension goes through it's range of travel. The gap is by design and necessary. If the top plate was designed to be in contact with the strut tower, it would be made of much thicker rubber, not just a rubber coated steel washer. Have someone steer the wheels left to right while you watch the top plates and you will see why the gap is necessary.
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s/c'd cav
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by s/c'd cav »

the OE top and bottom washers are different , in the gto and G8 the washers were the same , at some point GM changed them , this is the part # 92273396 from bulletin # 16-NA-010

unfortunately we do not stock them , so i can not take a picture , also i wont have any time tell next week to take any pictures of mine

but YES there is normally a small gap , your top washer does not look correct from what i recall , can you take a picture of your left over washers ?
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kevink
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by kevink »

I'm pretty sure his top washer looks exactly like the ones on my 2011 (my top and bottoms were the same and my car was never taken apart with 3500 miles on it). It also matches the diagram here:
https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/auto-part ... nents-scat
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yargnits
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by yargnits »

I kept my old washers and compared them last night. They look like the ones in my pics, so the washers supplied by Whiteline are used on the bottom. I didn't compare them directly, but the Whiteline washers seemed to have deeper cups, so I doubt using them on top would have helped eliminate the gap.

I've read through many threads on this and other forums. It seems most find it acceptable for there to be a gap between the strut tower and the top plate. I'm not ready to accept this because the reasoning so far doesn't make sense.

This is my logic:

Original design. The top plate DID make contact with the strut tower. Because of this the plate would not spin. As the rubber bushing collapses with wear, it gets pushed farther up into the seat. Obviously the threaded strut-end moves upward too. When this happens, the force holding the plate down goes away and it can spin, wobble, etc. That's the familiar sign of worn bushings. I really think this is the way GM intended the design to work.

It seems the design of the urethane bushings allow them to set deeper (higher) into the seat and cause the same effect as a collapsed rubber bushing. The top plate now gets sandwiched tight between the plate-nut and the rim of the cupped washer, with little to no contact to the strut tower. We notice the gap, but the top plate doesn't spin, so we say everything is good. Nope.

That doesn't make sense to me. If we had a collapsed rubber bushing with a wobbly top plate, we could get the top plate to stop moving by doing the same thing: tighten it down onto the cupped washer, then say it's all good even though there's still a gap between the plate and strut tower. If/when the urethane collapse, the top plate will still be snug between the nut and cupped washer. We just notice a larger gap.

So. I think the issue is the Whiteline bushing diameters (top and bottom different for taper) are too small. If they were slightly larger, this would not be an issue. My old rubber bushings were is pretty decent condition, but I'm pretty sure I threw them out (they may still be in a box somewhere). I wish I could take compare measurements. I hope to find time this afternoon yet to call Whiteline and as them directly about this.

Going forward, I'm inclined to either source different, flatter washers, or turn the existing washers over. Cupped washers are usually used for a spring effect, but I don't see that happening in this use. They may be cupped for strength enhancement???

Whatever I choose, I think I should be able to remove the plates with the car on the ground, remove the top retaining nut, either swap out the washer or turn the existing one over, re-install the retaining nut, top plate and plate nut. Am I missing something that would keep me from doing that?
Dave B - Yargnits
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2011 Caprice 9C3
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yargnits
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by yargnits »

s/c'd cav wrote: Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:25 am the OE top and bottom washers are different , in the gto and G8 the washers were the same , at some point GM changed them , this is the part # 92273396 from bulletin # 16-NA-010

unfortunately we do not stock them , so i can not take a picture , also i wont have any time tell next week to take any pictures of mine

but YES there is normally a small gap , your top washer does not look correct from what i recall , can you take a picture of your left over washers ?
The top and bottom washers were the same in PPVs. It's just been recently that GM advised to use different washers, with the tops and bottoms being different part numbers. This was brought about by strut rods being rammed up into the hood causing sheetmetal damage. https://gm.oemdtc.com/6697/front-strut- ... aprice-ppv

I tried to determine if I could re-use either my top or bottom washers, but got nowhere examining part numbers. If a washer contributed to the failure, I'm assuming it was the lower washer. My Whiteline bushings came with a new washer for each side and I used them for the lower end. So, the top washers you see in my pics are the originals.

I would consider ordering new top washers if I knew they were flatter. Notice in the link above that the drawings show flat washers. Looking up the part number for the new top washer (provided by that link and matching the number you gave) shows a cupped washer.Diagrams here: https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/oem-parts ... r-92273396

I'd be interested if you could check what the new washers actually looked like.
Dave B - Yargnits
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CrashTestDummy
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by CrashTestDummy »

Just for grins, I went out and got some crappy cell phone pictures of our current setup. BC Coil overs using factory replacement gearings and the new bushings that came with them. They've been in at least a year now.

Side view, no flash:

Image

Side view with flash:

Image

Top view:

Image

Yes, there is a small gap between the upper bushing/disk thingy and the hole in the inner fender.
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Ilikemtb999
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by Ilikemtb999 »

Here’s mine with whiteline mounts. Nothing seemed odd to me when I installed them. I used their washers underneath and stock on top.
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yargnits
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Re: This doesn’t look right (after new struts)

Post by yargnits »

Thanks for looking at your setups. In Crash's second pic you can see where the cupped washer is holding up the top plate. It seems that would bang pretty good if you went all "Dukes of Hazard" with your car. :lol:

Fortunately I was able to take advantage of the time difference and call Whiteline tonight. The tech I spoke to understood what I was saying and wanted to refer it to a Holden guy. I've copied my soapbox post above and sent them a link to this thread. Getting Whiteline's input will be great for all of us Holden fans.

I'm ruling out having my wheels aligned by Easter, but I'd rather wait and get it done right.
Dave B - Yargnits
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2011 Caprice 9C3
2018 Silverado LT
2005 John Deere (garden tractor)
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